raw tone curve issue for Nikon D3100


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mdale9
raw tone curve issue for Nikon D3100

Hi

I discovered LZ some time back but never really got around to using until recently when I had a lot of holiday snaps that I wanted to process.  One in particular is showing up some strange effect in the what I can only assume is due to the raw tone curve that is being applied.

When the original raw NEF file is displayed in the LZ browser the colours are distinct and clear but when I click on edit the contrast and dynamic range of the image shrinks and I cannot get the edited image to resemble the displayed RAW image in the browser.  Viewing the raw file in Nikon View NX2 gives a representation that is more like the LZ browser image.

Clearly LZ can display an accurate rendering but something happens between the browsing and the editing. (and if I remove the raw tone curve adjustment it doesn't look right either)

Any ideas what is happening?

 

 This is the image displayed when browsing through the files on the disk.  When I click to edit I get the following image.

 Note the washed out colours and lack of blue in the sky

 Using the Nikon View NX program to view the image gives a similar representation as the first image.

Thanks

Martin

SFA
Hi Martin,

Hi Martin,

 

The intial display is likely the jpg embedded in the NEF file for use as a thumbnail. It will be processed according to the (jpg oriented) settings in the camedit era as the frame was shot.

 

Once you open the NEF file for edit you get a new interpretation without the jpg presets but with some basic processing applied (there shoulf be 2 RAW tools visible in the LZ tool stack) to provide some minimal processing to make the RAW data file look like an image.

 

I don't use Nikon kit so have no idea how View NX works but I would guess it might apply the in camera settings to the RAW file as a starting point. LZ will know nothing about those.

 

You probably need to adjust the exposure a touch and introduce some saturation to the colours to get the same look .... but if you like that look there may not be much point to doing any processing for that image. It may be a different story for other images.  That said and based purely on what little I can really see in the images posted, the body of the image looks a little under exposed to me. The sky looks quite nice. In the LZ image the body looks more interesting and the sky washed out a bit. So it you process the sky a little you should be close to an interesting result. However all of these things are down to personal taste!

 

Did you install the LZ V4 release or one of the beta versions?

 

 

 

 

Jacal
Tried some

Opening some D3100 raw samples in LightZone (4.0 and last beta), I've got an impression, that the raw tone curve for this camera is really "on the bright side". Some of the samples have Active D-Lighting set to "auto", some to "off". They all seem to be more or less overexposed and they look better in Raw Therapee, UFRaw and Lightroom with default settings.

 

Here are Dpreview samples:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond3100/13

 

Have a nice day!

 

ibolle
I strongly second that!

I've got the exactly same issue €: with my D3200 and it keeps me more and more from using lightzone, simply because it's not only "the bright side", there seems to be something like a global loss of saturation, too. There's no other way to explain it, I really tried hard playing around with the tone curves, but the results were mostly not as good as even using IrfanView (!) for a 1:1 conversion ("save as jpeg"). Looking at the thumbnail all is fine - switching to the edit mode turns the crap on. :( It's strange, is there no way to fix or properly work around it?

Photonoxx
I don't know how IrfanView

I don't know how IrfanView works, but it may be simply extract the Embed jpeg of the RAW file. I previously had a D200, and the Embed jpeg was in full resolution, but it's not RAW.

Jacal
By default, IrfanView only

By default, IrfanView only loads the embedded jpg preview of raw files, but it can - with raw plugin installed - also be set to open the actual raw image (that tends to look darker and flatter than jpg). Editing can be done, but is, of course, quite limited, so there is no reason to use IV as a "raw developer". It has been my default viewer for years though, and it can launch LightZone as an external editor.

 

Greetings,

 

Mart

 

EDIT: By the way, it can be handy to have a raw image with wrong/different preview embedded in your collection, so you can instantly see, what an viewer/editor is showing you.

Photonoxx
It's mainly "empirical", but

It's mainly "empirical", but I try to tweak yhe RTC opening the jpeg preview of a D3100 RAW file beside Lightzone.

 

Can you try this RTC :

 

<Template version="8">
  <Scale Factor="0.22868218"/>
  <Image path=""/>
  <Controls>
    <ZoneOperation Active="true" Collapsed="false" Locked="true" Mode="Normal" Name="RAW Tone Curve" Opacity="100" layerControlsIndex="0" regionsInverted="false" scale="0">
      <ColorSelection HueBlue="0.5" HueEnabled="true" HueGreen="0.5" HueRadius="-1.0" HueRed="0.5" Inverted="false" LuminosityEnabled="true" LuminosityLower="0.0" LuminosityLowerFeather="0.0" LuminosityUpper="1.0" LuminosityUpperFeather="0.0"/>
      <Points Size="16">
        <Point X="3" Y="0.19911504424778761"/>
        <Point X="6" Y="0.30973451327433627"/>
        <Point X="11" Y="0.7831858407079646"/>
        <Point X="12" Y="0.8584070796460177"/>
        <Point X="14" Y="0.9380530973451328"/>
        <Point X="15" Y="0.995575221238938"/>
      </Points>
    </ZoneOperation>
    <Region/>
  <Crop Angle="0.0"/>
  </Controls>
</Template>

 

In the over hand, with the default RTC, if you underexpose at -.0,80EV, you'll get a pretty similar image to the embed JPEG, except for the Highlights which are burned.

ibolle
Empirics

[Edit³: Ooops, I forgot to mention earlier that I am using a D3200, not D3100. But it appears to be the same issue anyway, but maybe someone can change the topic accordingly?]

I'll try out this RTC, I hope I can manage to find out how. ;) I'll give feedback on that. Besides this thanks very much for the feedback, especially highlighting the importance of the RAW-embedded JPEG in the context. That - of course - explains that unsatisfying effect when switching from thumbnail to edit mode.

Regarding underexposure: No, it's not similar at all to me, and it was the first thing I've tried under the first impression that editing RAW starts "brighter". The image get's darker, "greyish" and "flat" (looks like a loss of color depth and contrast, that's my best descirption for the moment).

Edit²: Okay, I've created a CameraDefault;NIKON D3200.lzt in my ..\lightzone\templates\ folder with the code above inside. Maybe I did it wrong because it appears in the styles menu?! Here's my experience (I am using 4.11, of course) with this...

BEFORE this one of my little twin boys looked like this in browsing mode, i.e. the RAW-embedded JPEG

http://abload.de/image.php?img=1_previewp6ux8.png

BEFORE this is what happened when entering edit mode

http://abload.de/image.php?img=2_edittzu3m.png

AFTER this is what happened when entering edit mode (looks better with that added RTC)

http://abload.de/image.php?img=3_edit_rtcucul0.png

BUT look what happens to the preview, whilst hovering the mouse on the RTC in the styles menu - even much better, but not applicable

http://abload.de/image.php?img=4_edit_rtc_mouseover2oufw.png

Hope I could contribute some more confusion. }:o)
 

Photonoxx
Nice if new RTC help a little

Nice if new RTC help a little.

 

The looks of the preview when you hovering the RTC is probably lightzone don't take in account the style in D3200 style contain a tool with "Raw tone curve" name, and the preview correspond to the look your picture will have if you add an additional RTC.

 

But, when applying the style, Lightzone avoid to get duplicate "Raw Tone Curve" named tool.

 

For the matter of color, it's pretty "normal". The embed jpeg take in account some proprietary settings of your camera to process Jpeg, as saturation, sharpness, color mode... Lightzone is not able to apply these settings, and give you a pretty neutral picture which is better to make your own processing. Probably, if it's all you want to do to some pictures, you can create a basic style which get close to the embed jpeg and simply apply it to your pictures, but the defaut RTC have to give neutral picture for widest post processing abilities.

ibolle
I will further go down this

I will further go down this path, starting with some test photos with all additional camera built-in stuff disabled. Thank you very much for the help.

tex
FYI, I'm watching this thread...

I hope we can get this sorted for you.  Please note I said "we". Let me get on my soapbox for a minute...

People have complained about the need to register to download.  That began for several reasons, a couple of which are now obsolete, an I won't go into that.  But now the main and most important reason is to help LightZone survive through community support.

We just don't have the resources to deal with every contingency (and I am over on the artist end of the spectrum, not the technical end, so my help is extremely limited....just sayin'...), so it becomes a community effort by default.  This has very happily become the case, with many issues solved by the membership.

By continuing to work on the problem yourself, you, too, are making this contribution in the best spirit of this project.  Of course, it is understood that at a certain point in individual cases it may be better for that individual to switch to something else, and that is fine.  No need to beat one's head against the wall!

But I'll just say that your efforts are very much appreciated, as are those others' who have been helping.  Let's see how this progresses, and see what we can do to make things better.  Since I have done a number of profiles (and more to come), here is one spot where I may be able to help---but only after July 4-5.  I am traveling now and have limited internet access.

bipbop00
The RAW Tone Curve supplied for the D3100 is horribly wrong

Hello Martin,

I've been struggling with this problem for hours, but I have finally fixed the problem.  I learned how to make my own RAW tone curve, and now all my photos look as they should.  I don't know why the RAW tone curve supplied with LightZone is so terribly wrong for the Nikon D3100, but it most certainly is.

I created this tone curve using the information in this youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4U8Hv612Gw

And using this high quality test photo from imaging-resource: http://216.18.212.226/PRODS/D3100/FULLRES/D3100LL001003.NEF

And making a new tone curve so the test photo matched these values: http://www.rags-int-inc.com/PhotoTechStuff/AcrCalibration/MacbethCC-NumsRGB.jpg

So, here is the correct tone curve for the Nikon D3100: 

<Template version="8">
  <Scale Factor="0.18712316"/>
  <Image path=""/>
  <Controls>
    <ZoneOperation Active="true" Collapsed="true" Locked="true" Mode="Normal" Name="RAW Tone Curve D3100" Opacity="100" layerControlsIndex="0" regionsInverted="false" scale="0">
      <ColorSelection HueBlue="0.5" HueEnabled="true" HueGreen="0.5" HueRadius="-1.0" HueRed="0.5" Inverted="false" LuminosityEnabled="true" LuminosityLower="0.0" LuminosityLowerFeather="0.0" LuminosityUpper="1.0" LuminosityUpperFeather="0.0"/>
      <Points Size="16">
        <Point X="8" Y="0.5973451327433629"/>
        <Point X="9" Y="0.6814159292035398"/>
        <Point X="10" Y="0.7345132743362832"/>
        <Point X="13" Y="0.915929203539823"/>
        <Point X="14" Y="0.9867256637168141"/>
      </Points>
    </ZoneOperation>
    <Region/>
    <Crop>
      <UpperLeft X="0.0" Y="0.0"/>
      <UpperRight X="4644.0" Y="0.0"/>
      <LowerLeft X="0.0" Y="3084.0"/>
      <LowerRight X="4644.0" Y="3084.0"/>
    </Crop>
  </Controls>
</Template>

I hope that saves some people the time and frustration that I went through!

ibolle
Okay, I had to kick the

[Skipping the foreplay I'm just trying to follow the path bipbop went on Doug Pardees traces... I'll report back with a RTC for D3200 or cursing my own incompetence.]

 

Okay, so here's my try for NIKON D3200:

 

<Template version="8">
  <Scale Factor="0.20914815"/>
  <Image path=""/>
  <Controls>
    <ZoneOperation Active="true" Collapsed="true" Locked="true" Mode="Normal" Name="RAW Tone Curve NIKON D3200" Opacity="100" layerControlsIndex="0" regionsInverted="false" scale="0">
      <ColorSelection HueBlue="0.5" HueEnabled="true" HueGreen="0.5" HueRadius="-1.0" HueRed="0.5" Inverted="false" LuminosityEnabled="true" LuminosityLower="0.0" LuminosityLowerFeather="0.0" LuminosityUpper="1.0" LuminosityUpperFeather="0.0"/>
      <Points Size="16">
        <Point X="7" Y="0.5796460176991151"/>
        <Point X="9" Y="0.7345132743362832"/>
        <Point X="10" Y="0.7831858407079646"/>
        <Point X="12" Y="0.9070796460176991"/>
        <Point X="13" Y="0.9911504424778761"/>
        <Point X="14" Y="1.0"/>
      </Points>
    </ZoneOperation>
    <Region/>
   <Crop>
      <UpperLeft X="0.0" Y="0.0"/>
      <UpperRight X="6034.0" Y="0.0"/>
      <LowerLeft X="0.0" Y="4012.0"/>
      <LowerRight X="6034.0" Y="4012.0"/>
    </Crop>
  </Controls>
</Template>

 

Tex, is this worth to open a new thread or is there another way to make this available to other users of that model, if it fits the quality standards necessary?

matteo.costa
I also tried for NIKON D3200,

I also tried for NIKON D3200, slighly different from the one above:

 

<Template version="8">
  <Scale Factor="0.20384488"/>
  <Image path=""/>
  <Controls>
    <ZoneOperation Active="true" Collapsed="true" Locked="true" Mode="Normal" Name="RAW Tone Curve NIKON D3200" Opacity="100" layerControlsIndex="0" regionsInverted="false" scale="0">
      <ColorSelection HueBlue="0.5" HueEnabled="true" HueGreen="0.5" HueRadius="-1.0" HueRed="0.5" Inverted="false" LuminosityEnabled="true" LuminosityLower="0.0" LuminosityLowerFeather="0.0" LuminosityUpper="1.0" LuminosityUpperFeather="0.0"/>
      <Points Size="16">
        <Point X="5" Y="0.4424778761061947"/>
        <Point X="7" Y="0.6106194690265486"/>
        <Point X="10" Y="0.7743362831858407"/>
        <Point X="12" Y="0.9070796460176991"/>
        <Point X="13" Y="0.9823008849557522"/>
        <Point X="14" Y="1.0"/>
        <Point X="15" Y="1.0"/>
      </Points>
    </ZoneOperation>
    <Region/>
    <Crop>
      <UpperLeft X="0.0" Y="0.0"/>
      <UpperRight X="6034.0" Y="0.0"/>
      <LowerLeft X="0.0" Y="4012.0"/>
      <LowerRight X="6034.0" Y="4012.0"/>
    </Crop>
  </Controls>
</Template>

ibolle
Nearly forgot to give proper

Nearly forgot to give proper feedback: The RTC by matteo.costa is even better than mine (except the crop section that should simply be "<Crop Angle="0.0"/>").

rafi266
RTC for d3000 nikon family

does anyone know if the RTC for the D3300 is the same as the one for previous models (D3100, D3200)?